Thank you for joining us once again on the Form Life podcast.

In this episode, we will be discussing sexual assault and sexual

violence in the context of the Bible. While we believe

this conversation is relevant and necessary to have, we

do know that it may not be appropriate for young listeners.

Let's look at shame. In the Bible,

shame is depicted by in three ways. Naked

in the garden, they were naked and ashamed, filthy.

Defiled is the actual word throughout Scripture. Shame and

defilement go together and excluded outside the camp.

And so in the Old Testament, shame is depicted by this naked

defiled outside the camp. Those are all three things that Jesus

experienced in his crucifixion. He is stripped naked,

publicly shamed and humiliated. He is

spit on. Garbage is thrown at him.

He's probably relieving himself just from the shock, from

all bodily fluids, all over himself, and he's just being treated

with defilement and filth, and

he's crucified off in a garbage heat, excluded outside.

And so Jesus experiences literally all of

the effects of shame. Naked, defiled, excluded.

Welcome to theform Life podcast, where we aim to help you follow Jesus

in all of life. I'm Bill, and I serve as the campus pastor at our

Brookside campus. And I'm Paul. I serve as the campus pastor at our

Shawnee campus. And we're grateful that you're joining us today for this

important conversation. We know that it's difficult

and sensitive, but frankly, we don't think churches talk enough

about sexual violence. That's right. And as you'll hear in this episode,

the statistics are staggering. In their lifetime, one in four women

and one in six men will be sexually assaulted. The tragic reality is

that this is a pervasive issue, one that we as the church, simply can't

ignore. And to help us start to navigate this important conversation, we are

honored to spend some time interviewing Justin Holcomb. Yeah, we really were.

Justin's an ordained bishop, professor, and author. He's written or

edited 22 different books on a variety of subjects abuse

theology, biblical studies and more, including the book Rid of My

Disgrace, which has the subtitle Hope and Healing for

Victims of Sexual Assault, which he co wrote with his wife, Lindsay. And

as you're about to hear, justin brings a number of important insights to this conversation.

And it was so rich that we also have a follow up conversation between the

two of us and Liz Nelson, a regular contributor to theform Life podcast. Yeah,

Liz has served in ministry for decades and is also a trained mental health

professional who regularly serves clients that have sexual violence as

part of their story. It was so good to get her perspective on what

Justin shared and discuss next steps for our church community.

Let's dive in now.

All right, well, Justin, thanks so much for taking some time to be with us

this morning. My pleasure. Happy to join you guys. And I'm grateful you're

doing a topic on this shedding light on a

place where there's a lot of darkness and pain for so many people. Yeah,

I said the bill. We've been in the middle of studying the life of David

in first and Second Samuel as a church recently, and

David's story has so many high points, but then many, many low

points as well. And we've made the decision and I'm really glad that we did,

or grateful that we did. It's important for us to tell the story

of two Samuel 13, which is where David's daughter,

one of David's daughters, Tamar, is actually raped by one of

David's sons. And so this is, for us, a big

moment, and we're really, really grateful that we have you

to help us with some of the aspects of both this text and the broader

conversation. So thanks again for joining us. Absolutely.

People who take the Bible seriously, you don't get to avoid the parts

that are uncomfortable or confusing. And so hitting it head on

is bold, but actually what? The Lord put it there for a

reason, and honoring

that is important. So I don't take it for

granted that a church is doing that.

Yeah, well, thank you. That encourages us. Yeah. We had an

episode earlier in this podcast with author Jay Stringer, and he

talks about how the Bible treats these characters with both honor and

honesty. And the Bible is very honest about

the ugliness and the dark parts of the human condition. And this is

one of those places of honesty. And so when you and your

wife Lindsay sat down to write a book on sexual assault, you chose

to open the book with this. And so I'm curious what drew you to this

text and how does it help frame this conversation about sexual

assault? And just even as you maybe even as you respond to those

questions, maybe just if someone's not familiar with this text, could you

even just tell us the story of Tamar and Amnon a little bit?

Yeah, it's Second Samuel 13 and it illustrates

the trauma of sexual assault, but

also the echo of hope that

Tamar has. So Amnon is

Tamar's half brother, and the reason we picked it is because

it contrasts the conflict between

disgrace and she uses the word disgrace.

That's where the title of the book comes from is who will rid me

of my disgrace? And so our book that we did

over ten years ago is called Rid of My Disgrace. And that's

the question. There's an echo of a hope that there's a

place that she can go, there's a person, there's something that will rid her of

her disgrace, but it puts disgrace and

grace and puts them as

options. And it's looking at shame, despair and

brokenness and healing, hope and compassion. So what

happens is the one reason we didn't want to select

this is because it is a story that's very

intense. We want to be really careful not to activate other

people's memories. But it's in scripture. We wanted to go toward

it, but it's also because she's a woman, the survivor, the victim is a woman.

This isn't just a women's issue, we'll get to that later on. But what happens

is Amnon is

deceiving and he's acting sick to get her to come feed

him. And so there's really important points

in this which is most victims or survivors, so we can talk about

what language to use later on. They know they're the

assailant. That was important, the fact

that he leveraged that relationship

and that awareness of one another. And then

you have a really deep sense in the text. When you look into the text,

the way she responds is that there's a sense of a loss of

self, there's grief and mourning, there's crushing

shame, there's degradation, forced silence, prolonged social

isolation. And so a lot of the effects are

similar, so social and personal boundaries are

violated. It's clear from the text, if you look

in verses 1214 and 22, that

Amnon's actions are an assault, that they're violating,

shaming, forceful and humiliating. So it's really

clear and then

her question who will rid me of my disgrace? That is the

question that we wanted to look at. The other part

is the fact that

David's response was horrible.

David, I don't know if we actually put it in the text, but

he didn't pursue justice

and any care real for his daughter. And so in one sense

Amnon is kind of like his dad. David

failed in huge ways.

The way he assaulted Bathsheba is almost

eerie to see the father and the

son harming and assaulting in similar

ways. And so that's something that needs to be

connected there also. But that's the main reason was those are some of the reasons

why we selected it was just because there's so

many dimensions of

sexual assault that are reflected in the text. Both

what the Bible depicts it as

and the effects and the

method of assault of someone who they know

and all the different factors are there that allowed us to kind of go

toward it and unpack some and then spend the rest

of the time answering the question who will rid me of my disgrace? And

what does the person and work of Jesus Christ have to

do with how do you connect the

grace that is

embodied, accomplished, secured

and applied because of the person and work of Jesus

Christ to the effects of

the disgrace from assault? And that's the

answer is Jesus Christ the personal work of Jesus Christ. And we can

unpack that later too. But that's the whole point is who will rid me of

my disgrace? And then being able to come back to

Tambar and say thanks be to God that there is someone who has crushed

the head of the serpent and has fulfilled the promise that God

will forgive all of our sins cover all of our shame,

destroy all of our enemies, and give us hope everlasting.

Yeah, we really appreciate those insights. We're

recording this in advance of us preaching it. And so

we're sort of in the process of studying this text, we have a collaborative model.

So at our multi study church, five campuses, five different

preachers, but the same text, and I'm charged with kind of leading our

conversation. So I've really been studying this text, and all of

that is just so rich and insightful. One thing,

as I've been studying it, I've noticed there's a shrewd

and selfish counselor. So Amnon

and Tamar's cousin sort of positions

himself in this self serving way, so he's this, like, wicked

counselor. There is an absent and

angry but impotent father, and then there is a

vengeful and bloodthirsty older brother. And so there's this

echo, I think, and maybe I'm I don't know, reading into it, but this

echo of like, a false trinity within the text. But

you get the true and better Holy Spirit, counselor the true and better good

Father who's not impotent, who's actually very close to our crushed,

broken hearts. And then the true and better older brother, which is really then in

your book. You guys do such an excellent job applying the

grace that's present in Jesus to her

question of rid of my disgrace. But that language of echo,

because, man, when you just read Second Samuel 13

and stop there, you're desperate for it

to reverberate and echo forward to something else. So

all of those insights are so helpful. And as we step to the broader

conversation, as you and Lindsay have had opportunities because of

this book and for other reasons, but just to

teach and educate on sexual assault and abuse, I wonder and you

do some of this work in the book. How do you define sexual

assault, sexual abuse? And is there a differentiation between assault

and abuse? Can you help us understand even definitionally, how we

should start to think about the broader conversation? Yeah, well,

first, what a great example of why to do a collaborative

model. I mean, what you just talked about there, about what

you've been finding, I mean, that's something that I haven't noticed. And

I 100% agree. You actually have this kind of

satanic counselor who's involved and the false trinity type of stuff,

I love that. That's an example

of looking at what the false counselor said and looking at some of

the horrific ways of responding to survivors. Is he's an example of

that? That's what's so powerful.

The collaborative model is 100%. Back to your question about

defining. Defining is important. Let me give the

definition. So I love the question. So our definition

of sexual assault is any type of sexual

behavior or contact. So we can unpack that. Any type of

sexual behavior or contact where consent is not freely given

or obtained and is accomplished through force,

intimidation, violence, coercion, manipulation,

threat, deception or abuse of authority.

Now we went to psychologists,

therapists, legal,

sociological. We went to a few different arenas to try to

get a really good definition that's not too broad

but not too narrow. Many people have a very

narrow view of sexual assault when they

define it for them. And I want to be really careful, not just to kind

of throw out words because it's been the experience of too many

people, but for most people sexual assault

means rape, usually

envisioned as a stranger. So

that's actually not the majority of sexual assault cases.

And so there's a spectrum. You don't want to be so broad that

everything is sexual assault because if everything is, then nothing

is. And so you try to figure out where to go. We've given

this definition so we're very comfortable with that definition.

In it it says and you asked a question about abuse and assault.

We use sexual assault as the umbrella

category for anything underneath assault.

And then you have voyeurism

exhibition, attempted rape, rape abuse is

usually connected to child sexual abuse type of

thing. A lot of the work that's been out there has been

on for like Dan Allender

Wounded Wounded Heart. I know

Dan, but I forget the name of his book. But that was the book. But

it was for adults who were survivors of

sexual assault when they were children sexual abuse. So sexual

abuse is usually referred to for children. So

that's our definition. But in the definition we have

sexual contact or behavior. I don't

want to get into specifics, but not all sexual assault is just

by contact. There are certain ways of threatening people to do things.

That is sexual behavior and consent is a

key part of this.

Consent has to be freely given or obtained and then there's

a variety of methods of how the harm is accomplished by the

perpetrator. So that's our definition. I'll stop there and see if there's anything we want

to unpack on that. But that's the definition we're looking at. And what I've noticed

is people have said there are

two things that got them when they would read the book or listen to us

talk. One is the definition going, oh, wait a second,

that sounds more like my experience because most people have very

narrow definition. The other thing was looking at the

effects. A lot of people have listened to the effects that we've

talked about and kind of went through and said maybe

that experience that I had was that because I have these

effects. But they didn't connect the dots from the effect to the

experience that they had. So that's important just to say is

that some people at the church will be hearing this and for the first

time they'll be able to acknowledge and name

what happened to them and put it into have a category for it.

So I just want to if that is happening to some of the people at

the church or listening to the podcast. That's actually very common. It's not an

uncommon you're not strange or weird.

That's normal. Yeah,

well, as I've talked with people who have

telling these kinds of stories, you might run across someone who says,

well, I was with my

boyfriend and he said if I didn't do

such and such, I didn't sleep with him, he was going to kill himself.

So I didn't want him to do that. But

he didn't physically force me to do anything. But that's that

element of coercion or manipulation that's not really

given consent, right? I mean, just talk about even that's kind of a

scenario. That's a perfect example,

very similar. I have

permission to tell the story. I won't say any names anyway. But there was one

wife whose husband threatened

to divorce her, take all the money, take the

kids, threatened her if she

didn't do certain things that he wanted her to do with other people

that he provided. I mean, it was just disgusting.

Control manipulation. And

because it doesn't I mean, one,

a lot of people don't know how that happens. The survivor

of the victim feels embarrassed and shameful

because they feel like they somehow

they were involved and that they chose that they used their agency

to do this when they actually were being forced and threatened. And that's how the

manipulation works. That's the deception. That's why it's so dark

is that the actual means of threatening

and degrading someone makes them feel like

they did it. And

it's masterful if you're demonic Satanic

in darkness. I mean, it actually accomplishes its goal, evil accomplishes its

goal by doing evil like that.

I'm really glad you mentioned people either listening to the podcast or

congregants that are there when we preach this sermon that are starting to

connect dots for the first time as we press into this text and into this

conversation. I have been thinking and praying in

advance for these people. My heart is so

burdened for them and for anyone, for all of us really because we're all sexually

broken and we've all experienced the pain of sexual brokenness of others in

our own way and in our own story. But particularly maybe for

someone who has experienced sexual assault that hasn't connected the

dots around that yet. My heart's been heavy and burdened.

So I'm glad you mentioned them. When should someone, they or

anyone really reach out? How should they reach out? How have you seen

that go as well as possible or

been set them on a good course towards some of their

healing? Give some next steps to people that

might be fitting the description that you laid out.

Most people suffer in silence.

That's why pastors doing this and your

tenderness is so important is

because people will pick up on that.

People will begin to trust that you actually mean what you're saying,

that maybe they can talk to their pastors.

Most people. I've told the

clergy where I serve, hey, just bring this up in sermons. Just mention that the

grace of God is for those who have sinned and

give them some examples of what kind of sins you mean and

been sinned against, and give them some examples of being sinned

against. Because Jesus is conquering sin, he's

not just dealing with guilt, he's conquering sin in all of its effects.

So to be clear, if you've been sinned against in

a sexual assault way, you are not guilty. It is

not your fault. You didn't do anything wrong.

You didn't deserve to be treated like that. But the sin

done against you is dealt with by Jesus, and the

effects of that sin are undone now and for

eternity by the works of Christ. So just to be really clear,

many people think that Jesus died for our sins. He did. He died for

sins. And the guilt that I have, he also died for the sins done against

me and the shame and the effects that come from those. Come

on. So that's the bullseye you had to expand

the personal work of Jesus and what he's actually doing.

So I've told clergy where I serve, mention

it, and they started mentioning it, and then they

started coming back with accounts of

a woman in the church who has suffered in silence for 60

years, because the minister mentioned it one time in a

sermon and going, I think I might be able to tell you what happened. And

this one minister had three women who suffered for 60

and then two with 50 years of silence. So there's a reason that

there's so much silence. That's because they don't trust anywhere to go. Because

our culture, one, our culture is victim blaming. American

culture doesn't like it scares us that there could be so much darkness everywhere.

So it's actually safer for us, and this is mostly Americans because of

how privileged we are. The idea that there's darkness everywhere is

unnerving. So we'd rather have the reason that happened is because that

person did this. They were that they drank that.

They said that they acted like that. So we're one of the most

victim blaming cultures on sexual assault

and that people pick up on that. And then this is also what one's

conscience when someone has been a recipient of

harm and sexual assault, they feel like

dirty, damaged goods. They internalize and they start

so the condemnation also comes from them. So you have the outside culture blending

you. You have your own voice in your head going, did I do

something? Why would that person that I know violate

our either acquaintance or relationship? I must have done

something. And so it's just that question. And then when someone

finally does say something, either in church or a friend, usually it's

dismissed or some type of platitude. Churches are

not usually the best place to go.

Unfortunately, in the recent history on issues like this

because they get covered up. They get some type of shallow theology or

platitude or shallow empathy. And so for a church

to do this is really important. That's why I

wanted to do whatever I could to just come alongside and encourage you guys

and say, thank you for doing this. More churches need to do this. So going

all the way back to your question, I was kind of setting up the problem.

So if you're realizing that this is your situation,

see if you have a friend that you can trust to

share this burden with. See if there is

a pastor that you know that you could try

to share the burden with, a therapist,

counselor. Just see if there's anywhere. If

it's happening now, just get safe. Get the

medical legal, get the help you need. Again, there's spectrum

for some of this is past, for some of this is present.

And so getting safe is key.

What usually ends up happening is when someone discloses. And the moment of

disclosure is one of the most important moments. That's why I don't

want to rush people to just go, oh, just go find someone. The moment

of disclosure. When you finally tell someone, like,

here's a piece of what happened to me, that's actually a

key moment for trajectory of hope and healing.

If the moment of disclosure is if they're listened to and

believed and encouraged, that actually sets them on a significant trajectory.

Moment of disclosure. So I don't encourage people just to run

to anyone, just to disclose it's. Disclosing in a healthy

place. Disclosing in a place where you'll be listened to and believe. So

if you think you want to talk to someone about this, look around

your life and see if the Lord's provided somewhere where you think it's a

safe place where you'll be listened to and believe. And the listen

to and believe language comes from all of the research. They've actually asked survivors

of abuse what was the most helpful thing

in your healing. And the number one,

far and away, beyond all other possible

things was being listened to and believed by other people.

Which is encouraging, because that's not hard to

do, is to listen and believe someone.

And listening literally is making eye contact and acknowledging

what you're hearing and not asking suspicious questions is believing.

And it's easy to believe because sexual assault is

the least falsely reported crime there is. There's so much

shame wrapped up in it, people. The problem is not that they're falsely reporting

stuff. The problem is that they're not reporting stuff because of how much shame

is there. There's so many assaults that are happening

if someone's telling you a story. My wife

and I have done this for over about 1516 years.

My wife knows of one report that was a false

accusation. I've not seen one. Every time I've heard a

disclosure, usually what will happen is the person will say, hey, this happened.

And then if you're trustworthy, they'll be like, Anne, here's another

dimension of it. In another dimension, they're usually seeing if they can trust the

person. So that's what I'm telling people who are people who are

survivors. Try it out, trust them with a piece of it, see how

people respond, and then trust them with more later on.

So I think that's important. I just want to go to the language real quick

between Victim and Survivor.

In our talks, we have gone between both Survivor and victim,

survivor and victim. And it's because many people who like

Survivor, it's a

way of kind of saying no to the darkness. Like, no, I'm a survivor.

I've survived this. I'm not a victim of this. And so

I like that there's a little bit of identity in there, like, no,

but some who are

victims I had one victim say to me,

hey, Justin, why do you use Survivor? Sometimes because I don't feel like a survivor

at all. At all. I feel like I'm not even surviving properly now.

I feel more ashamed by the language of Survivor. So that's

important because people especially because this is in a church setting

and I'm speaking to pastors, too, just being aware that there's no

safe way. As soon as you say Victim, some people are saying, no,

that's not the last word on me. Amen and amen. But then if you

say Survivor, some victims are saying, well, great. Now I'm not even

surviving properly. Thanks for the shame. So let's just

hit it head on and be aware of that. And that's part of the

logic of darkness, is that's what it does to people is it causes confusion like

that. I really appreciate the

sensitivity around that and just even the freedom to

minister effectively and be a friend effectively and ask

people to sort of share as they're comfortable even around those terms. It

kind of reminds me there's, like a parallel of you hear about

all the good work that comes out of Alcoholics Anonymous and AA, but

sometimes there's like a pushback against sort of saying, I'm an

alcoholic because that is an identity statement and our

identity is in Christ. I hear those conversations sometimes, and it's

like, okay, I get all that. But there also could

be, yeah, I appreciate your sensitivity and the nuance even in the midst of

those terms. That's helpful. I'm curious just as we

have some as we're kind of wrapping up here toward the end, but just

I'd love to think about you said at the beginning Tamar asked

this question, how can I be rid of my disgrace? And

obviously you and Lindsay have written a whole book on this, and this is not

something you can do in five or ten minutes, but

in a sufficient kind of way. But I wonder what would be

your initial answer to how Jesus rids

us of that disgrace if that's been our story, if that's been our

experience. There's counseling,

there's all this kind of care that's needed. But what's a start at an answer

of how the Gospel addresses this. That's the

question I can answer is how does the Gospel address this? Because that's a piece

of it. That's the centerpiece for us, because as

pastors, most of us are not therapists, most of us are not

lawyers, most of us are not law enforcement officers or medical professionals. So

we have a lane, which is the Gospel lane, and

I want to stay in that Gospel lane. But

that's also where so much of the hope and healing comes

from. And so what we do is you look at Christ. So some of the

effects let me give some of the broad effects of sexual assault.

Denial and minimizing, distorted

identity, shame, anger, despair,

guilt. They're again not guilty for being

a victim of assault, but they feel guilt even though it's

or because of what's done to them. They've

responded to being sinned against in sinful ways. So there's guilt.

What has Christ done? Well, it's not just the cross. The Cross and

resurrection are the bullseye of the work of Christ. That's

the Apostle Paul that always puts that I know Christ and

Him crucified and risen again. That's what I've decided to know and

emphasize. But the Incarnation, the perfect life, death,

resurrection, ascension, and his return.

So there's lots of works of Christ, and so what we want to do is

look at what are some of the effects in which work of Christ and there's

not a science to it. It really is how does the work of Christ

relate to these effects? Let me give you an example. I feel

like I'm in complete despair. No one cares, no one

hears. That might actually be true.

You might be isolated, but in Jesus's

ascension, he ascended to the right hand of the Father, where he

is currently mediating, interceding and advocating

for you. That's what he's doing on his throne right now.

The present ministry of Jesus is he is praying for you.

He's mediating, giving you 100% access to the Father

mediated through Him, and he's advocating for

you. The condemnation, he's saying, no, there's no condemnation in that

person. That voice of shame needs to be silent. So he's advocating praying

and interceding for you right now. So the despair

that you feel, the idea

that the COVID of darkness has descended and will

never lift again, the resurrection is Jesus punching holes in

the darkness. It doesn't make it go away forever, but

it's the beginning. The Resurrection is the first fruits of punching holes in

the darkness as a picture of what it will be like as a moment of

hope breaking through. So the

two biggest the two biggest effects of sexual assault

are distorted identity and shame. So let me hit both of

those address both of those.

Identity is when people have been assaulted, they feel. Like their damaged goods

broken, stupid. How to let this happen to me? Just

the whole list of low self esteem, distorted identity

issues. What research has found is that when someone does

positive self affirmations, which is me saying to

myself, the opposite of what I'm actually feeling, that's negative,

that positive self affirmations actually don't work. Positive

self affirmations spike someone's self esteem for a little

bit, but then they crash deeper into

despair and self loathing than before. Because a

positive self affirmation is the

person realizes, oh, no one else is saying this

to me except for me. And there's a cruelty

to positive self affirmations. So how much better

than handing someone and say, hey, wounded person, heal

yourself to say, what does your Creator and Redeemer say about

you? And if you're in Christ, the adjectives that the Bible

uses for those who are in Christ are

staggering. They're way better than I would ever make up.

I would say about myself, justin's smart, he

works hard, he's whatever. Like, I come up with, like, really low level

adjectives. If you're in Christ, the Bible

says you're pure,

perfect, righteous,

holy, without spot, blemish, or

wrinkle. For someone who feels like

filthy, damaged goods, hearing over and over

again the words that the Bible uses for those who

are adopted and in Christ, pure, perfect, righteous,

and holy, without spot, blemish or wrinkle, that's way better than

you can ever make up. It's not a homemade ritual that you have done to

yourself. This is your Creator and Redeemer from the outside,

repeatedly throughout Scripture. That's what he says to you.

So that's where distorted identity meets

the identity in Scripture, they collide, and the distorted

identity just can't weather the storm of

the flood of overwhelming goodness.

Let's look at shame. Wow. In the Bible,

shame is depicted in three ways. Naked

in the garden. They were naked and ashamed. Filthy.

Defiled is the actual word throughout Scripture. Shame and

defilement go together and exclude it outside the camp.

And so in the Old Testament, shame is depicted by that's right. Naked

defiled outside the camp, which is exactly what

Jesus and by the

way, let me just pause right here. Let me go back to

the identity stuff real quick. Those adjectives that were

called is because of the active righteousness of

Christ. Jesus died for our sins. He

obeyed the law. He fulfilled all righteousness. He

loved God and loved neighbor perfectly. He was

pure, perfect, righteous, and holy without spot, blemish or wrinkle. And

so what happens in the Gospel is called the Great

Exchange. We give Him our sin and our shame, and he

gives us forgiveness and his righteousness. So it's because of

the life of Christ, it's because he fulfilled the law perfectly

that we are imputed bestowed and accounted as righteous,

pure, perfect and holy. Those words aren't just sentiments because

it's kind of like, oh, God thinks you're pure, perfect and holy. Like, well, on

what basis? On the basis of his Son Jesus Christ,

the second person of the Trinity, incarnated, who obeyed the law of

God, perfectly secured the blessings of that covenant and

then gives it to us. So that's why we use those

words. If you don't explain why, then it's just a sentiment. So

that's why now. That's right. Back to shame,

defiled, naked, outside the camp. Those are all three things that Jesus

experienced in his crucifixion. He is stripped naked,

publicly shamed and humiliated. He is

spit on. Garbage is thrown at him.

He's probably relieving himself just from the shock, from

all bodily fluids all over himself. And he's just being treated

with defilement and filth, and

he's crucified off in a garbage heat, excluded outside.

And so Jesus experiences literally all of

the effects of shame, naked, defiled, excluded. So

the great exchange is that we are robed in the

righteousness of Christ. We receive the robe of the

Father, in the parable of the prodigal Son, who just drapes

extravagant robes on us. The righteousness of Christ cleans.

He watches us in the water of the word revelation.

We are a bunch of people with white robes that have been cleaned in the

blood of the Lamb. And we're adopted. The language is adopted into the

family of God, where we have a Father who doesn't harm us and who provides

for us all the time. So we're clean, we're robed, and

we're adopted in Christ. Those are some of the ways that

the Gospel responds to the effects of abuse. And there's more.

And that's where pastors are so helpful to unpack these things.

This is what we do. And so I'll stop there for the just

sake of time. I think you just wrote the conclusion to our

sermon. Yeah. Thank you so

much. So helpful. As we plan to wrap, there's

two questions that I don't want to leave off the table

here. And the first is because I think there's probably some

misconceptions. You kind of hinted at one earlier that

this is not just a female problem. So I want to ask the question of

any statistics within this conversation that

you would want to share. I want to ask that question. Whatever you feel is

most helpful there around statistics in this conversation. The second question

is essentially what questions do well meaning churches

forget to ask? So what haven't we asked that we should

be thinking about? So those are the two kind of final wrap ups.

Yeah. One in four women and

one in six men are or will be survivors

of sexual abuse. That's why it's not a women's issue at

all. One in five children before their 18th birthday will be sexually

assaulted in the United States. It's higher in some other

places. Let's just go

back to one in six men, one in four women, one in six men.

I'm one of those men. So when you're looking at a

room, you can basically divide by four or five, and

either everyone in the room has experienced

abuse, and we haven't even included child just child neglect,

child abuse, intimate partner abuse. This is just sexual assault.

Everyone in the room has suffered or someone they

love very close to them has or

will in their lifetime. And so that's important

just for everyone to know. Because while there's so much shame wrapped

up for a woman to experience sexual

assault, there's another layer of shame

in American culture because it doesn't fit American masculinity.

Like, what kind of man would let that happen to him? Is kind of the

question, the shame culture question that they feel. And then in many

churches, it just adds on the question of

sexuality. So it's a powder keg of pain for a lot of

men to actually disclose and share with anyone.

Some other statistics that are important is that sexual assault

occurs in about ten to up to 14% of

marriages. Yes, it is possible to experience sexual

assault in a marriage. There were not what's called rape laws

until the Puritans in Massachusetts actually were the ones who said,

wait a second. This kind of sin and harm, this should be a crime too,

when it happens in a marriage. Something that just very importantly, I want

to say is that the highest risk years

are 16 to 19 year old young women. They are four

times more likely than the general population to be harmed in

this way. So that 16 to 19 year old

women just know that

and care for them accordingly.

The questions that if this isn't for you,

you guys have asked all the questions. I love the questions you've asked, questions I've

not been asked before. And things that you talked about,

the sermon, cohort stuff about the false trinity

that was new to me and agree.

I think churches and leaders need

to know

a few things. How do you prevent

abuse happening in a Christian environment? How do you

recognize it and how do you respond to it?

Prevent, recognize and respond. But the responding is kind

of the key because that responding is where so much more harm

I said the moment of disclosure is so important. Imagine being in a moment

of disclosure and getting shallow theology, shallow

empathy and platitudes, as opposed to the

thickness of the amazing hope of the gospel.

And so that's where so much of the harm comes in, where there's suspicious

questions, there's like, do I

really believe? And all that kind of stuff. And the other

one, the one question I wouldn't think about, is that this is a long

suffering ministry. The effects of abuse.

This is how trauma works. I mean, trauma

for most people who have experienced sexual abuse, trauma is

not an overstatement or an exaggeration. They've experienced trauma. And

the way trauma memory works is that you relive

if a trauma memory hasn't been processed throughout the

typical way memory works.

When I think of a good vacation, I kind of like see it from a

distance where I'm like, oh yeah, we were there doing that. And so you kind

of see it as something outside of you. Trauma memory

is different where it actually is like a virtual reality, like

put right over your memory where you're reliving the

moment. And so knowing, just being trauma informed

the person is not being dramatic, they're not trying to get attention.

The speed with which you want them to be healed is not

happening at the speed that you would like. This is a

long suffering ministry. God wired them for their

brain to actually do this for their own survival. It's actually a gift

that we can kind of keep memories at arm's length a little

bit. So I'm not saying the way trauma memory is

not a gift from God. I'm saying that the fact that humans are so

resilient that their brain responds and their body

responds in a certain way to kind of place the

trauma is amazing. Let's go with some of the stuff

that God has wired us in and let's be patient

and let's realize that

darkness doesn't have the last word. But the effects of darkness can be

very powerful. Let's keep our eyes wide open. To acknowledge the

continued pain of something isn't to somehow minimize the gospel.

It's actually to say no because the words of eternal

life are real.

Jesus punches holes in the darkness, but the darkness goes away and does

not win eventually. So right now what do we do until then?

We wait. And we wait and hope. And in the Bible, hope

isn't something that is a wish for outcome that might

happen. In the Bible, hope is secure. It's certain

because of the resurrection. The resurrection means

all darkness goes away, all wounds are

healed. And there is hope 100% because

the tomb is empty. So because of that we can wait because we

know the outcome.

Amen. Amen. Do you want to wrap up with. Our very final

yeah. Justin, first of all, just thank you so much for your time,

for your wisdom. We're really grateful and you've served our

church family really well in this. Whenever we do

these podcasts, we always like to end with a particular question just to kind

of get to know our guests in a different dimension. And that is just to

ask you, you've had an amazing career of

writing and speaking and pastoring and all this, but if you could just live another

life and do something else for a career, what

would you do? I always say I'd love to be a national park ranger, grew

up as a Boy Scout. I just would love to spend all my time in

the outdoors. But if Justin Holcomb could do something else with his life, what

would he do? Well, I'd be a financial planner.

There's something about financial planning that I just enjoy. It's like the

planning because I'm going to go off on a whole nother

tangent, but if you can set people up early

in their life with saving and getting a plan, and

it's not difficult. And I like helping

people think through that because it's a gift of freedom.

When people have more financial freedom, they can actually make

kingdom decisions and not got to pay off seminary or pay off

school debt questions. And I've

realized I like it because there's a few professions

where you can just kind of dive into people's lives. And so being a pastor

is one of them. Financial planning is the other one. Apparently,

people don't ever. And so I kind of like the

vulnerability, but I like the vulnerability because people usually are so

intimidated. They're like, what am I ever going to do? Am I ever going to

retire? And, like, act, this is easy, guys. Just do this, this, this, and kind

of demystify. I had someone demystify it for me decades

ago, and I remember that feeling of having

this impossible thing of finances demystified and

realizing, oh, wow, and I enjoyed the freedom. So I love working

with people to be like, okay, you can set up your HSA like this, and

you can do the Roth like this and this. And I'm not doing any magic.

It's just what I've learned. So you can already tell I get to a different

gear. Do you already do this as a side

hustle? I don't charge for it, but I love

talking about it. I actually have some clergy, so I'm a bishop. So actually

there's numerous clergy in the diocese where I serve. And we get together and we'll

go out, and I'll be like, okay, so the HSA plan

works like this, and you can do this. And then if you do your 529

for your kids. And then you got to make sure you pay yourself first because

take care of yourself. Don't give all your money to the college thing because then

you won't have anything for your own retirement. So working on a

priority plan. So I do do this unofficially, but

I'll be bringing some financial planners into our diocese

so they can serve the clergy like that. And then

my side hustle when I'm a financial planner is that I would be a fishing

guide. I would get my own little skiff,

take people out, and have them pay me to ride in my boat

to go fishing with me. That sounds awesome. There

you go. Yeah, that's an OD. You got to financial planning first.

They have the margin to hire you to do that. So that's how those two

things work together. I didn't put those together, but that's actually a really good

plan. There it is. That's an awesome answer. Thank

you again so much for taking the time to be with us. And, yeah,

if you're listening, you'll find all the links to the resources that we've mentioned here

and there's a ton of resources that got mentioned, and so we'll compile

all of those in the show notes. And thank you, if you've been listening,

for joining us on this really, really important episode of the Form Life podcast. Thanks

again, Justin. Thank you, guys.

Wow, Paul, that was an incredible conversation with

Justin, and I'm just so grateful for his work and the work that he and

Lindsay have done in this area. And I'm also thrilled that we get to be

joined by Liz Nelson today to continue this conversation.

Yeah, that's right. And I, too, am so grateful

that Justin gave us the time and that Liz has given us the time for

us to gather again here. And if you've been listening to the Form Life podcast

for a while, then you'll recognize Liz. She's basically a regular contributor

at this point. She's been on several down. No, not at all.

We keep asking her back because it's a delight to be with her and to

get to chat about important topics. She's been on a couple of other episodes related

to mental health and spiritual formation. And then her and I

and a dear sister from our Leewood campus got together

for a fascinating conversation about sleep and the role that it plays in

both mental health and spiritual formation. Well,

yeah, Liz, you're becoming a regular, which is great. And you are a licensed clinical

professional counselor, and so you have a counseling

practice that you are regularly walking with people through all kinds of things, but

even people who are walking through the very kinds of things that we're

talking about in this story. And so as

we had this conversation with Justin, we also wanted to have

some time just debriefing that conversation with you, helping us think

about what does this mean for us at Christ community, for our particular

church context. And so we're just really grateful that you made the time to be

with us. Thank you. It's great to be with you guys. It is. I appreciate

your emphasis on this. I do. Yeah, it's an important

conversation. And so to have the follow up here and really wanted to just start

by asking, liz, what are you seeing in your vocational

world related to all this? So from a professional mental health

perspective, what can you share or add to what Justin

brought? He's coming from the conversation of a pastor and a professor and an

author that studied and read widely and has been in pastoral

counseling situations. But as a mental health professional, what are you seeing?

Yeah, well, I really agree with

the statistics he gave, as well as everything else he said,

but one in four women, one in

five kids, one in six men?

Yeah. I would say that is a very

clear, good understanding

of how prevalent this is,

sadly. And so we are encountering people

in our pews, our chairs,

regularly who have been traumatized, and he

used really good definitions for being a

victim, the offender, the survivor. And

I would prefer to use trauma because trauma is a little bit

broader. But sexual trauma,

it can be any unwanted touch. And so

that maybe broadens it a little bit more. But

yeah, in practice it's not

unusual to have someone 50,

60 in

my space saying these things are showing up

in my life. And the variety of presentations

kind of brings to mind maybe we look

in your past, maybe we see if there's something that has

been triggered or is continuing to show up

and narrows the trauma, narrows a person's

world. Our brains naturally

scan for danger. It's just a great instinct that God

created within us. But with trauma

and alone in trauma too, especially,

we scan for danger and we find it where it doesn't exist. And so that

narrows our world. Places they won't go,

people they can't be comfortable around. Even though it's not

the offender, it is still a

situation that feels has a glimpse of

what has happened in their lives. And so trauma narrows

a person's world quickly because we tend to generalize

and trauma will do that too, create

signals of danger in places it really

doesn't exist. And so that's what we want to as a counselor,

we want people to experience the beauty and fullness in

relationships with God, with others and in God's creation.

But trauma will short circuit that.

Yeah. And so when we were even talking a little bit earlier,

Liz, along this idea of trauma

narrowing someone's world, you mentioned this

idea that even if someone maybe hasn't

experienced, like, a textbook example of sexual

abuse, this broader idea of trauma or even just a break in

trust with some of those people typically who are

closest to you can even kind of maybe present

in some of the similar kinds of ways. And so I wonder if you just

even talk a little bit about this, but I thought I could trust you. And

the dynamic that unfolds, whether that's with betrayal

or maybe it is sexual abuse or sexual violence, but

what does that do to someone? How do we navigate that?

Yeah, that's the recovery from a broken trust,

a betrayal, a trauma. That's a lifelong

journey because, yes, Jesus

heals and he uses us in that process,

but it's a lifelong journey.

We tend to guard our hearts, people who have

been betrayed or

traumatized in that small T, big t,

it's life altering. Even if we don't identify it as so, it is

life altering. And it shows up when we relate with others. It shows

up intracyclic. So the interior

part, fear, anger,

grief, despair, there are

ways that we experience this that we have a hard time pointing

to. Why does that exist within me?

Why do I respond? Why do I overreact what's beneath

the surface there? And sometimes it's

grief and trauma kind of lock arms

and people can grieve their whole lives over

things that they never realized have impacted

them in that way. And yet grief shows

up in various places throughout their

lives and they just like, why does this keep

surfacing? And a lot of that is the

betrayal, the trauma, the

aloneness actually is what

keeps it surfacing in different ways,

presenting in different ways. Yeah. I wonder, Liz, if we could even just think

through a bit of a hypothetical. And again, these

are stories that exist, but I don't have a particular

person in mind here, but let's just say someone in fact, I think Justin

mentioned this, that maybe women between the ages

of 16 and 21,

that isn't a particularly vulnerable place. So let's say we have someone

who's 17 year old woman who

is in the context of a date rape kind

of situation, she hasn't told anyone

about this. And you're kind of saying this kind of show up over the course

of someone's life. Just one of the things and I know each person's story and

ways that they deal with that is unique. But just from a kind of a

general counseling, what might that look like in that person's life? You're saying, oh, the

grief and trauma, lock arms or there's these places where

maybe that person doesn't want to go, or just

maybe take that kind of a situation. And what kinds of

things might that person experience? What might that look like? And then how

is you as a counselor maybe, would you begin to work? And again, I know

we're talking about. A hypothetical, but just hypothetical,

but that's a real case for me. Yeah.

And

at that age,

you're trying to kind of distance yourself, begin to

manage yourself outside of your parents care. I mean, it's

just that transition age. And so

not everyone feels comfortable taking that to their parents.

They want to be trusted by their parents. They want to move through

life getting more and more

autonomy from their parents. It's healthy.

But at the same time, our prefrontal cortex, our

brain, our judgments and our logic reason isn't even

fully developed until we're 20 to 24.

We are so vulnerable in that age. That is

the age of onset of many diagnoses

for mental health. That is a very vulnerable time for the

brain and the psyche.

How that might look for someone who has been

traumatized sexually.

Sleep. They're not sleep impaired sleep. They're

never going to feel rested.

And if they are awake, it could be that the

depression, grief, trauma shows up in even more

fatigue during the day, inability to

focus, retain, but at the

same time, possibly amnesia because our

body wants to protect us.

God has designed it to protect us. And

when you say amnesia, amnesia about the trauma moment

itself or even more broadly outside of that.

Yeah, even more broadly. Wow, okay. Yeah.

So it might be helpful to know how God

has designed us. So we used to

think our psychonophore says, right, that it's fight or

flight. And we now know through interpersonal

neurobiology, there's reach, there's reach first until

it doesn't work. So if there is trauma

taking place or neglect, which

can be a form. Of trauma yeah, right. Well, and that's a

great point, too, when there's

trauma, let's say this is our psyche.

There's going to be a spike in our cortisol

adrenaline. I mean, there's going to be a spike

with someone to process it with. Trauma

can drop back down. We can reach a level of

well being that we have experienced before,

not trauma, experienced alone. And staying

alone can remain heightened. Our alarm

systems remain heightened until it's

processed. And people don't realize that the

impairment that is experienced from

trauma really can fade. We

can turn the volume down on the grief and the anxiety, all the presentations

of it, but

unprocessed, that spike can stay high, and it

might dip for a while, but it can really

elevate quickly. And those are triggers, of course.

Yeah. So back to our responses. We

reach first. Safety if reach

means for a person. If that safety is

not there, then fight or flight shows up.

But our bodies, we're not making these choices. Our

bodies are making these choices right now. Our bodies in

a threatened state may fight

or flight, but if our bodies

in its response, our human survival instinct

says, feign, play possum,

freeze. That's not our choice. That is

our body saying, this is the only way you're going to survive. And

that's why then people will say, well, why didn't you

fight? Why didn't you run? Why didn't you reach for your phone? All those

questions are so retraumatizing.

And so that's where our bodies

serve us well, because they are created by

God to protect us. And that's where amnesia shows up,

too, is if there is a memory that is

we can't tolerate our survival, cannot

tolerate, then our body shuts it

out. And yet we have the scars in

our body, right. We're bearing it in ways.

Right? And so that's right. That's where

someone who specializes in trauma is ideal

to

work with someone who specializes in trauma. The beauty of

their special training is that they teach

first how to calm

and stay present in

the

processing of that trauma. So they equip

the individual first with tools that they

will use for a lifetime. When triggers show up, they give

them those tools first so that it can

be processed in a way where they're not traumatized.

Again, tools to calm, tools to focus,

tools to just stay present and

heal instead of have this continue

to create and

impair their lives. So that's the beauty of trauma

work today, is they know how to do that. And so,

absolutely, if someone's experiencing trauma,

you want to seek out that specialist. Yeah. I

was really impacted when Justin shared that statistic

about the vulnerability of particularly females and that age

demographic. Before coming back to serve in my

role at the Shawnee campus, I spent three years working

as the chaplain on a college campus and

anecdotally the statistic

he was sharing bared out in my office

and everything you're bringing. Liz I'm seeing

all the connections in so many

stories with not just female students, but male students

as well. And now even having the language of like,

oh, man, those those people that trusted

me with that part of their story. In that moment, there was a reach

dynamic that was happening there.

I took a couple counseling classes in seminary. I know

you did too, Bill. And our

listeners may have or may not have

if someone reaches to us, what are some of the things we can

be doing? I hope in those moments I responded, well. I mean, this

trust dynamic, it's broken. But here's a moment

they're maybe trying to ReTrust or rebuild back towards that or reach.

What are some things to keep in mind there? Or how can we does

that question make sense? Yeah,

it's amazing moment. Once someone reaches the

connection there for you guys who've had

some training, some exposure to this, you may be

able to personally tolerate some of the pain and the

suffering and the agony that someone shares with you.

Others may not. And in that moment, we've

learned don't leave the room. But it is

okay as a pastor or a

congregant to say, I would never leave the room on

you, but we're going to bring someone else into the room with us. That's

great language. That's where you can be with them as they

even just sit down to send an email off to a

counselor because we don't want to leave the room. But at the

same time, there's a thing called secondary trauma. I mean,

we can experience what they are sharing in a

way that just begins to elicit alarm

and panic in our own well being because it's not

something we've encountered before. And that panic can show

up and be really distressing.

But also the other person could be retraumatizing. I mean, they could

be sharing in a way without the tools right.

That keep them present

and prevents the retraumatizing. Without those

tools, they can be retraumatizing themselves in

the sharing of

their sexual trauma. And so that's where

no, we don't leave the room. Oh, my goodness. No. But we can

bring someone else into the room. And that can be a really big

step. Really hard, fearful. I'm thinking of

one person whose parents didn't believe them. I had that

story. What did you do? I brought this on was kind of the

mentality. And so

there's a lot of undoing

where that trust was shattered, even with the people that weren't

even involved. But the trust is shattered. And also who

your primary reach would be to right. Your

parents. Yeah, that's right. Thankfully, her

campus pastor believed her and. They were able

to. And the beauty of ending to that story is that

she decided to press charges and the offender was

found guilty and the

court also gave her two years of

counseling at their expense. Wow.

There are good endings. It doesn't mean that anything that

happened isn't the worst thing you could imagine.

But, yeah, I really appreciate you

naming Liz, because this reality of secondary trauma

for someone receiving this and naming that, what I hear

you saying is that the need to bring someone else into the room

doesn't make you weak.

Because I think sometimes, especially those in the helping professions, we

want to be enough for those people. And whether you're

listening to this and you're in a helping profession or you're just a

friend, but you want to be able to help this person and

feeling overwhelmed, I think you can feel like, I'm too weak, I

can't handle this. But none of us were meant to do this alone.

And to bring someone else into the room, especially someone who has training

for that, is so important. And yeah, it's really great

language about, I'm not going to leave you. Right. But

let's bring some other people in to this who can help us here.

I think another thing that struck me, even when you said why we don't

want to believe, justin mentioned that

there's part of us, and maybe it's particularly true

in America in this moment, but we don't want to believe

that the world is as dark a place as it is. And so there's part

of us that wants to say, like, that can't have. Happened, that type of evil.

And so there's moments where

we don't want to believe that these things happen and so we don't want to

believe someone's story when they share it. We've

also talked about the difficulty of

victims, survivors, bringing the story forward because sometimes the

implications for their own life if they do.

And just even thinking of the example of Larry

Nasser and USA Gymnastics, maybe just talk a little bit

about that and some of the difficulty that those women faced in

bringing their story and reporting what had happened to them. Yeah,

so the most trusted people in their lives,

nasser, Dr. Nasser, he was a doctor. He was

the best in his field or he wouldn't have been training with the USA

Gymnastics team, right? So he was the best

and the most trusted. And doctors are those

one people who we say to the kids, this is the person right, who can

see these parts of your body. When you're doing that talk with your kids, it's

like, well, sometimes the doctor will need to see you or

touch you in these ways to make sure you're healthy. So you put that person

in an incredible place of trust. And we all

have coaches and other people in our lives,

people close to us that we trust. And so he would be that person

that is key to their future, to their well

being, to everything. They've spent that's their whole life

participating at night, committing to

and so hundreds of victims there

and unwilling because their futures were at

risk. And so

that's a story. That right.

Who can believe that that could have happened to so

many again, then these would have been probably

ages eight through 20, mainly

those years. And to be

continually repeatedly offended that way,

traumatized. And so yeah, that's a really hard one.

Her book. So the individual

den Hollander, I hope I'm getting her last name, what is a Girl

Worth? This is a book that for

individuals who cannot picture something

that unbelievable actually

happening. Oh my goodness, yes. This is a book

for those who are in positions of leadership,

who can be engaged in ways that

monitor, prevent,

are well aware of systems that

could easily have this happen in

as well as for people who have suffered. How did they find their

voice? How did they learn to trust each other, learn to

trust others? And then also the

courage it took and the sacrifice it took on the behalf

of these young ladies to come forward.

But the courage, the bravery that she

really if you've heard her

speak, she's not afraid. She

is like the most powerful voice.

She's so encouraging and strengthening. She's

a powerful, powerful I mean, God has and she loves God dearly.

And yet that question, how did this happen? Right? Why did this

happen? What on earth? Where was God? Okay,

in this book, she will bring to light

a lot of those

heartfelt, life changing, altering

moments that God

showed up in ways that we can't

imagine, but she truly experienced.

Well, Liz, you brought us a document and we're

going to link that in the show notes. Actually, if you're listening right now, you

can actually go to the show notes and click on that or watching will be

in the YouTube notes as well. Could you just walk us through a little bit

of this reality, trust and brokenness? Because we're talking about that. And

again, this is a dynamic that exists in people's lives

for lots of reasons. Yes, maybe around sexual trauma, sexual violence,

but not restricted, but not restricted to that. And there's lots of anytime you're in

a relationship with someone that you care about deeply, there's an opportunity for

trust to be broken. We live in a broken world and we're

all sinners. And so there's moments when we

hurt one another. And so I think this would just be a really practical thing

for all of us. So walk us through this a little bit, Liz. Oh, you

bet. So it's just meant to be a

guideline maybe. Trust

in brokenness. For our community of

faith, trust, it is essential. We

can't have a community of faith without trust.

There are some ways that we so our defenses go

up. We all have defenses that

work for us. And our defenses go up when someone

is sharing something that has some

vulnerability to it and some sharing that

is deeply felt.

Our heart behind that as a listener is

to we want them to feel felt. That's Dan

Siegel so when someone is sharing and you realize

this is of great importance, the need for

confidentiality, go ahead and assure them, this is something

I want to share with you. I want to understand, help me understand more

fully. But at the same time we want to undo the

aloneness. So they need to feel felt like you are getting them where they're

at. So that's that

feeling felt. But there's also undoing the

aloneness. And that

comes with listening and

having a few of our own defenses,

recognizing how we defend our own hearts. Like some of us want

to jump to our own stories or

minimize what they're saying. Like, oh yeah,

that's something I've heard a lot about that's

going to quiet I'm pretty quick. But we have our own defenses just to know

ourselves better and realize that we're human too.

And we will jump out of that

moment of authenticity and vulnerability out of our own

distress when it starts to show up, what do we do

that so some of that is just knowing ourselves.

But I wrote a few things here.

We have to have trust in our faith for each other.

Trust is so what creates trust? Well, it's our own

vulnerability, sharing places that

are true and transparent and

authentic. It's our way

to be loved more deeply. Like if we're holding everything

in, we actually are withholding

the caregiving love that others can give us. And so that

authenticity and the beauty of

trust is a way of

transformation. We use that word a lot, but we

were wired to trust. We actually were wired to wired

to reach until it didn't work. Right. So then

we need to build it back up. I put the example

of a newborn in here and that's that startle response, the first reach

and the oxytocin, the hormone that well being

hormone of being held and

knowing that you're safe and you're

seen and you're secure and all of that is

experienced and that hormone replaces then

those other hormones that shoot up in distress.

The cortisol adrenaline dinorphine,

all those other ones that show up when we

are being known more fully, oxytocin is showing

up. That's so key that we see it

in newborns first, but we'd never move beyond

that, right? I mean, isn't that the thing? And we want to think that we

do and we don't have that same startle response as a newborn,

but we're all still reaching and those

same dynamics are still at play. Yes, and

it's Kurt Thompson that kind of puts that into a beautiful

phrase. We are looking for those who are looking for

us. Yes, absolutely.

It's good to kind of in a really

simplified way understand that if someone is talking about the

past, it's probably grief. If someone is talking

about the future, it's anxiety. I mean, just a kind of big

cat, big sweep there. But

it helps us begin to

realize what's unfolding in this moment.

Trust also not just vulnerability. Trust

requires safety. Trust is earned.

We reach and throughout life that reaching

can be

betrayed. It can be, it can fade. Or maybe it didn't ever

really exist. And so trust is

earned. I put micro steps.

We are healing agents.

We bring hope. But

when people keep us at a distance, at an arm's

length, you feel like there's not a lot of

given. Flow easily in conversation.

It's probably a trust issue and it's going to take time.

It's just going to take small steps of

faithfulness on our part. To small steps. Be reliable.

Hold the confidence well.

Ask questions and be prepared

for long explanations where you

don't try to fix their feelings. You don't try to give advice. You don't

recommend a book. You don't share your favorite scripture.

Let them speak. Let them listen. Listen.

I think I wrote that right,

exactly. Because we're trying to undo the aloneness there and

they're asking, do you really feel what I'm feeling? Even

though they're not mindful of that.

That's what they're asking. And then also do you

care? The mistakes are

mistakes we can make because it's our own anxiety that

starts to show up when people are sharing

transparently. Our own anxiety can show up. And

so the silver lining okay, we just need to

remove this from our way of engaging people in

general. Well, at least okay,

that's minimizing.

That's just kind of jumping ship.

Yeah. Instead I wrote something. I'm

sorry you experienced this, this wasn't your fault. Help me understand

more. Yeah. Just even as we're talking about that, those two

different things like I feel in my own body a difference in the posture of,

well, at least just kind of tightens me up versus I'm

so sorry that happened to you.

Sometimes people can't find the words.

It's okay if a person is sharing

something and it just seems like, wow,

that's life changing.

It's okay to say what you just said.

I feel the sadness, I feel the hurt.

I just want to weep.

I'm feeling that same kind of tremor of fear that you must have

experienced. It is okay to respond

with your authentic

response. When we

listen, we active listening too. We're just not jumping

in and saying, oh yeah, you know, that happened to me.

Yeah, that'll end the conversation pretty

quickly. But you're right. Sharing that bill.

What's going on for us is actually very

healing. Yeah. Refrain

from sharing your own story of something worse. Yeah. We've got this thing in us

that wants to top the

experience and it's

just another way of us kind of protecting ourselves from

entering into their journey. Kind of bring up ours as

fast as we can or go global. Oh, yeah,

this happens a lot, doesn't it? It's like, oh, ouch.

Again. Say something more like, you've got my full

attention. As much as you want to share,

I want to be there with you. I want to be in this journey. I

want to understand

another don't try to fix their thinking or

behavior. You could change that by or have

you ever thought about I mean, those are when a person

is engaging in a way that is

very vulnerable. We're not there to fix.

Yeah. That process

is happening just by listening.

Wow. So the listening actually is doing the healing work. The thing that you want

to jump in and give advice or whatever, it's like actually, just by listening, you're

doing the most helpful, most healing thing.

I may have heard this from you, Liz, but as you're talking about all these

things, like a little kind of phrase or maximum comes to mind. And that

is for when someone's sharing their story, avoid me

too. Or here's what you should do. And saying, oh,

me too, I've been through something like that. Or oh, here's what you should

do. And I always have that in my mind when I'm listening to someone's story.

Because we do we want to go to both those kinds of places of, oh,

I can relate to that. Here's my story, like you said.

Or oh, here's what you should do. You should go listen to this podcast we're

recording. You should read this book or whatever.

We want to rescue any intentions. We want to

alleviate the hurt, the pain, the fear.

So it comes from a good place, but we oftentimes want to rescue when in

fact, the beauty of continuing to

listen and to draw them out their own

processing is healing. The listening is the

healing, the presence. Can I say that your presence is

the healing agent there. And so you don't

have to otherwise we put pressure on ourselves. What do I say? How do I

say your presence is the healing

agent? Yeah. It's so powerful. Before

sharing your favorite verse, it is okay to

say, how are you struggling with God in this?

It's okay to I don't want to leave God out of it.

But it's okay to ask them, how is God showing up

for you? How are you struggling with God?

Where is God in this picture? It's okay to ask

that. We can ask clarifying questions. Oh, for sure. Because

that's going to give us even a more because we're holistic beings

here. And so it's going to give us insight too, into

where the pain or fear or doubt or

hopelessness is

impacting them. Yeah.

I wrote on here. Okay, so those are the things to if you're going to

show empathy, here's what not to do. So what do we do?

Being a part of life as they heal from recent

or distant past, I mentioned I will

have individuals who are older than me

who are just now sharing their story for the

first time. And the

past has there's a lot there.

So don't be surprised if someone's

vulnerability reaches back

to when they were ten and twelve or younger

and you're hearing it for the first time because they trust

you because it's showing up again somehow. Maybe they've

got a grandchild that age and now all the triggers are going

off. So

for your interaction with them, pray honest

prayers, don't edit.

Enter into their story as fully as you

can. And

I would say that for the individual as well. For them, pray honest

prayers. God can handle that.

We don't have to edit for that person

too. And for you as you journey with them. Journal

the insight in journaling the healing and journaling. I think

that's demonstrated by David in the Psalms.

Yes, they're his poetry, but I think they're his journal too.

Have a daily date with nature.

When Jesus said do not be anxious,

he followed up with look at the lilies of the field, look at the birds

of the air when he gives commissions, look at the wheat

fields. I mean he continually uses nature

to bring about to

strengthen and fortify and give insight and vision and

hope. And his presence can

be felt there as well. So have a daily we all need to

do that. Can I just say we all need to do that. Did you know,

I may have mentioned this before, CS. Lewis walked

2 hours every day. Yeah, I find that

incredible. How did he get everything done that he got done because he

walked 2 hours a day? You

mentioning Jesus here and we're getting to place where we probably need to wrap some

conversation for today. And there's so much and this handout is going to be on

you can walk through some more of these steps. But you mentioning Jesus reminded

me of a conversation we had as we were preparing for this

conversation and about one of his disciples, Mary

Magdalene, one of these women who followed him. And I just wonder as

we wrap up our time together, just share a little bit of Mary's story

and how it relates to this. I would just love to

wrap our time with that. Thank you. Yes, me too.

Well, we don't know everything about Mary Magdalene. We're not sure

what all the trauma was, but we know that from other

people in scripture that

being freed from demon possession. Okay,

that left scars everywhere. Jesus showed up with scars,

right. We know the scars didn't

disappear, but we see her following

Jesus as with the disciples and caring for them.

It does say she cared for their needs. Yes. We see

her following him to the cross where others did not. We know

she followed where the tomb was

and then we know that she got to be the heralder of the best news

ever. Heard, right. That's right. You know, I have seen

him. And then she

wasn't believed. Yeah. And so

the well, I guess Peter and John

bolted.

But there's a phrase in

John, I think it's John 20 they really didn't know what to do with

her. And probably

I'm just guessing, but everyone was traumatized at that point.

And oh, Mary's suffering again.

Oh, boy. Maybe hallucinations,

maybe hearing and experiencing

what she needs versus what's really happening. And

I just want to say what an amazing person to stay with

it and say, I saw him. We talked,

he called me by name. I touched

him. I gripped him. Yes.

And how beautiful of Jesus to

let her amen. Experience him so fully. That's right. Well,

even her grabbing onto his feet, she reached, right. That was

her moment of reaching. Yes. Oh, yes.

She sure did. And so for all the people who've been

traumatized and have been victims and

recovery is lifelong, praise God for

eternity. I don't know what the scars will look like, but we know

Jesus embodied them. But

how amazing that from eternity past, Jesus picked

her, that she would be the person

probably the person with the most

visible wounds following him would be the person

that first experienced his

extraordinary presence as a

resurrected Christ. Yeah, thanks for bringing that up. Yeah,

well, and thank you, Liz, for taking the time to be with us. We'll

have links in the show notes for the documents and

some of the. Other resources we mentioned, including on the first

segment when we gathered for the conversation with Justin. And

I think I hope we said then, and I'll certainly say it again now, that

if you're listening to this. Watching this, and this is part of your story

again, whether recently or it's. Actively happening now or it's in the

distant past, we as a church, as leaders in the church,

we want to be safe. People that trusted, people that you could

reach to. So just one more final encouragement there. But

again, Liz, thank you so much. And thanks, everybody, for listening and watching. Perform

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